(Good evening, all. I realize I still owe you all a post about my thoughts on the naming contest. Unfortunately, paying work has got in the way of goofing off here so far this week. I hope to have something soon. In the meantime, enjoy this post from January of this year. I’ve got a lot of new readers, so please chime in with your thoughts!)
Dante over at stupidranger.com raises some interesting questions today.
Dante’s point, which he makes so well, is that the economics of the D&D world are completely screwed up, primarily by magic items.
Let’s think about it: in our world, if there were wands that could cure diseases instantly, or if there were rings that could make you invisible, they would be the “gold standard” of the economy. Magic, rather than precious metals, would be at the heart of the stock market.
D&D has none of that. Hell, magic items are a regular commodity, as available as leather or wine.
There is another factor to think about in terms of D&D and economics. Just how much gold is there buried in all of those lost dungeons? And how much has been found? Wouldn’t the single dragon’s horde, discovered outside of a small town or village, completely decimate that town’s economy with the influx of all of that cash? Gold in the cities surrounding Myth Drannor would be so devalued as to be almost worthless, considering the thousands of lairs that have been raided.
These aren’t unique questions to D&D, either. The MMORPGs have the same problem, arguably on a much larger scale.
Having said all of that, there is still one question: does it even matter?
I say yes. We strive, as DMs, to provide players with a “realistic” fantasy world: a world that resembles our own in most ways, but has these supernatural, monstrous, and heroic elements. Those are what makes Dungeons and Dragons a fantasy role-playing game. Suspended disbelief.
But, economics? Having a completely unrealistic economic system doesn’t add to the fantasy element any more than having completely unrealistic geographic features adds to it (deserts and tundra can’t co-exist).
What’s the answer, then? Hell if I know. I was a philosophy major in college. But, I do think that there may be something on the horizon that helps: in 4E D&D, they’re talking about fewer magic items. That may be a step in the right direction.
Any professional economists out there who’d like to give it a go? That might even make a decent product for a 3rd-party designer: Economics of the Fantasy World.
{ 13 comments… read them below or add one }
There are a few other considerations with magical treasure:
1 – There are several items that have charges, once they are used, they are worthless.
2 – Adventurers use a ton of items from potions to magical armor. They are a necessity in most worlds.
3 – A large minority of people gets access to most items, about a tenth of the population.
4 – The fantasy world makes some type of items a must have to everyone. A simple cure spell is probably the most useful spell in those places.
5 – Other items are worthless to the general population. A sword that can burst into flames would mean next to nothing to a farmer.
6 – Magical items can also become cursed making them useless.
Those were the ideas I could quickly come up with. There may be other points that if taken all together could balance the whole system.
Some things to think about:
If someone was lucky enough to acquire a magical item why would they sell it? Wouldn’t it be more of a family heirloom? I’ve always been a fan of getting good gear in dungeons rather than going to the local super market and picking up a custom +5 Flaming Battle Axe of Anything Slaying.
Its not surprising that the amount of magic items is going down when at least from skimming the books characters naturally obtain what once were magical properties.
As far as the economies go, think of it like this: Not everyone is an adventurer. Not everyone has gold falling out of their ears like the adventurers do.
Just because thousands of gamers converge on Indianapolis, Indiana every year and increase their revenue by over $5 million for the weekend doesn’t throw their economy into turmoil. In fact, I think they like it.
My take on it is that economics are as important to a D&D game as they are to the players (which is to say, usually not at all). It is not possible to build a fully-functioning fantasy world, meticulous in every cause-and-effect way that our real world is… and who wants to play in a world like that anyway? Not to mention who wants to attempt that level of thoroughness!
A D&D economy should work well enough to provide the players with the mundane items and services they need when they need them, and allow them to sell or otherwise convert stuff they don’t keep into cash. It really doesn’t need to do more than that. If we collectively hand-wave elements like racial prejudice, social inequality, religious tolerance and/or intolerance, and other such “realistic” elements to make for a more pleasing, playable game, it is easy enough to hand-wave the economy too.
Lets remember that there were checks and balances in place during the reign of 3.X.
It used to require life force (for lack of a better term) represented by XP that was used as part of the crafting process.
This was the reason why you didn’t see assembly lines producing rings of protection and such, because while making one or three for your dearest friends (or to sell/exchange for something you lack the skills to create) was okay, draining your life and power away was the penalty to be paid for overuse.
Of course Eberron brought that particular scenario back with the whole “capitalist society with a thirst for magical crap from china” thing, but it only hurts the brain if you dwell on it.
The simple solution would be to rule that there simply is not any organized manufacture of magical items…period. Master smiths can create +1 items on an exceptionally awesome roll (DC 30+) but anything else has to be crafted by the PC’s themselves.
Unfortunately, this forces members of the party to devote massive resources (precious feats) to craft items. That, simply, is not fun.
Besides, forget about magical items ruining an economy. What about cheaply available teleportation? Divination spells? Imagine the money to be made selling potions of bulls strength to farmers during plow time? Plant growth scrolls to stimulate a second or third annual harvest?
magic, in general will break an economy in hundreds of ways. The key is to keep it rare. Nothing spells lame like the party going to Dungeon-Mart to stock up on 192,000 gold pieces worth of items that individually could completely change the economic face of the world.
The answer, as always is with the DM.
An abundance of magical items would make any DM cringe. I don’t even allow the sale of magical items as a staple. They are magical, and rare for a reason. No one wants to give them up. The gold issue you mention is a major concern for DMs, which I think is best dealt with by the idea of, ahem, stop using gold! It’s simple, it’s effective, and it makes the party resort to understanding how the precious metals and stone work with each other.
Copper should be the most abundant metal, silver next, gold next, and platinum after that. Above platinum, you have gems to trade with, which makes it more interesting if no one buys gems…only trades for them. Instead of knowing that this diamond is worth 500 gp, you think it’s worth about that, but might have to trade it for only 200 gp worth of items. This keeps the amount of gold low in your campaigns, and makes the players feel more like they’re involved in a world of trade rather than a video game where spontaneous amounts of gold do nothing to the economy.
Just my two cents.
@Cole – Good points, especially #5. The value of a thing depends on who is willing to pay for it and how much.
@G – I agree that not everyone is an adventurer, just like not everyone in our world is a millionaire. But if there were a potion that would cure serious wounds, those millionaires would buy them all up, and they’d become more valuable than gold – thereby changing the economic base.
@BE – you raise a good point. “Suspended disbelief” is necessary in any fantasy setting, I get that. At the same time, this one is glaring to me. Economics are basic – money makes the world go around.
@Donny – I agree. Teleportation puts us in Star Trek transporter mode. Imagine the gold that those with teleport spells would make just teleporting all day long. I agree the answer is with the DM; I just want an answer that makes some sense.
@Jeremy – The problem is this: I don’t want to make magic items rare, at least not for adventurers. And I don’t think it’s right to give a 500 GP gem to players who can only get 200 GP for it; I’d just give them a 200 GP gem instead. Anything else is just taunting them, no?
But DM, I beg to differ, by that rationality Penicillin should be such a commodity that only the richest people can afford to obtain it. The market always finds a way to moderate itself. Not to mention aren’t cure moderates 300 gold thereby making them rather expensive for everyday folks anyway?
One thing that you could do is re-introduce keeps. That was a great money sink in 2nd edition. While you’re miles away adventuring you still have to send money home to pay your servants and upkeep.
I don’t like not having the option to edit anymore
Just wanted to add: Its very hard to “buy up” a renewable resource, problem is they keep making more.
Yeah, the edit plugin interfered with the comment luv plugin. Had to pick between the two. Sorry!
If penicillin caused wounds to close up on the spot, it’d be more expensive.
You’re right about the market. What I’m saying is that, instead of the economy being based on a gold standard, it’d be based on a magic standard. Resurrection scrolls are infinitely more valuable than any medication on the market today.
I don’t mind players having money; that’s not the point. Not at all. I just wonder if money has any real value when immortality can be purchased in the marketplace. Ultimately, every society would become a theocracy because even the wisest ruler would have to get the clerics to provide them with longevity potions and resurrections and whatnot.
Just sayin’.
But with every lowly minister able to make them the price would level off quickly and return to a reasonable price. Once the novelty wears off and the market is flooded with them the cost will go down.
Many stories have covered the subject of immortals in D&D. While resurection and longevity potions can extend ones life for a time the only way to immortality is through lichdom, become a vampire or to be touched by a god. Litches are not well received in polite society, Vampires are no good in the daily grind of ruling a land, and gods are pretty finicky beings.
There are many stories of Lich attempts gone bad. Not the easiest thing to do to ones self. Most sane folks would concider the cost too great, especially if they happen to know someone that had an “accident” during the process.
An example of a ruler that didn’t even have the luxury of being resurected:
Azoun the King of Cormyr nor any of his line was allowed to be resurrected due to a pact made by his ancestor with the dragons that plagued the region in the days of his fore fathers. If he were to be resurrected for any reason no matter how noble the dragons would return and devastate the land.
It would seem to me that at 1000 gold per attempt resurrections would be reserved for the very rich in any world. If I’m understanding 4E they’ve opened it up so any class can resurrect for very cheap now (until you hit paragon levels?) which will make the practice very prevalent now.
1. Magic has to be rare. No magic shops at all.
It has to be adventured for. You can sell it, but not buy it. “Rare” in the world at large. I like the family heirloom idea. In my world “citizens” hide and guard any magic, aside from the powerful that can afford to flaunt it. But just stock dungeons normally (I tend to be stingy).
2. My first house rule is to do away with easy magic creation. I resort back to 1e Gygax rules. Creating magic becomes a series of adventures in itself. You want to brew a strength potion. Pour through libraries, talk to sages, discovery a recipe. Maybe its the right one. Trips to get a heart of a giant, minotaur horns, rare herbs, etc… Cost of other materials at least 5 to 10 time the listed price.
So no magic factories, no magic shops. It has to be strong desire to create something from a roleplaying point of view, not a practical “power gaming” move.
3. As far as the scenario of finding a dragon hoard next to a village. This requires role playing. What do the adventurers want? If they want buy/build a castle, then the economy flows like it would if a large factory was built in a small town. Migrant workers show up, artisans are hired from a far. Shops crop to start selling goods to the workers. The castle needs to be manned by paid soldiers, cooks, stonewrights, etc… In some sense an artificial economy is created, just like a tourist town. Money is for buying goods, not magic. The characters need to come up with fun goals in which to spend money – hirelings, build churchs, just collecting jewelry, etc… like people do in real life.
I think Gary Gygax addressed this very well in the original AD&D DMG.
But, in general, D&D “adventurer” economics are divorced from any sort of economic reality. In traditional D&D they are more like prospectors anyway, hitting a big vein of ‘loot’ returning to spend it, distorting the local economy briefly and then moving on. (4E is even more explicit about that, with gold/magic items rewards being entirely divorced from anything but game balance.)
This can make it difficult if you want to try and build a world that seems to be real and conform to economic realities.
For magic items, it depends both on the campaign style (high magic as opposed to low magic) and the type of magic item involved.
Potions, for example, are almost always fairly easy to get hold of in my campaigns. Partly because they are (al)chemical in nature, partly because it is a good money sink/ability for a party to plan ahead.
Scrolls, usually less so unless the character is part of an organization. Clerics can get scrolls from their temple, wizards from their circle. But hard to get if you are a rogue sorcerer hunted by Imperial forces.
Permanent magic items, may be common when low powered, may be rare, but in all case could be bought if one was will to pay the right sum of money.
[b] [size=4] Magical item demand [/size] [/b]
I am working on how my campaign world works. Just now I am coming up with reasons for a demand on magical items. Let me know if you have any ideas on advancing the below concepts.
[b] [size=4] First cornerstone: magical items require properly powered souls to function [/size] [/b]
Magical items channel magical energies though a soul. A soul can only handle channeling a certain quantity or quality of magical energy. The level of the character is a manifestation of the power of characters soul.
[i] Note: [/i] We will be using the parcel system. I will allow characters to earn gold outside of the parcel system.
[i] Note: [/i] We will be ignoring the 0%, 20%, 100% selling rules. You may create a character that can interact with the economy. You may make a character that is a crafter, merchant, treasure hunter, or is otherwise effective in interacting with the economy.
In order to allow characters the luxury of spending gold on non-magical items, I have removed the wealth cap, and to keep game balance I am going to set a limit on the number of magical items a character can equip at any one time.
Magical items using the power of the wielders soul in order to fully function.
o Each level a character gets a magical item equipment slot with maximum capacity equal to the level gained +3.
o It takes one week for a soul to attune to a magical item. Alternatively a character can spend an action point to attune immediately.
o Un-attuning an item is a free action.
o One shot magical items do not require a magical item equipment slot.
o Self aware magical items do not require a magical item equipment slot.
o Some magical items do not require a magical item equipment slot (per the stories needs).
o There will be 0-level magical items such as magical bedrolls of comfort and such that do not require a magical item equipment slot. Zero level items will be limited in some undecided manor.
o Magical items not attuned may be worn, but their magical abilities will not function, and the item will act as a mundane item of the base type.
[b] [size=4] Second cornerstone: magic items don’t last forever [/size] [/b]
Magical items needs to get replaced as entropy does its thing.
[b] Second cornerstone part 1: arcane nature spirits [/b]
Arcane nature spirits seek to return magical energies trapped in magical items back into the world’s ecosystem. These arcane nature spirits, usually, understand that if an item is attuned, that it is being used, is part of the system, and leave it alone. An arcane nature spirit needs to attack, and kill the person an item is attuned to in order to unmake an attuned magical item. Doing so is considered blasphemy by other arcane nature spirits, but it is known to occur.
If an item remains un-attuned then it risks being unmade by arcane nature spirits. The longer an item is un-attuned the greater the risk of the item being unmade. Arcane nature spirits are, usually, duty bound and driven by compulsion to unmake any magical item not attuned for one hundred-and-one-years. Some spirits unmake items that have been un-attuned for a shorter period of time, and doing so is an expectable practice.
An unmade item leaves behind residuum as detritus as if a disenchant ritual was performed. In actuality the disenchant ritual speeds up this process by summoning arcane nature spirits, and making an item appear to not have been attuned for a hundred-and-one-years.
Wards holding arcane nature spirits at bay are possible, but have the danger of angering arcane nature spirits. Spirits can be quite vindictive when angered.
One can also attempt, and often succeed in fooling the arcane nature spirits by hiring a high level soul to attune a family heirloom, for example, when no family members are capable of attuning it themselves. Attempting to fool the arcane nature spirits in such a manor sometimes succeeds, and sometimes it does not. Spirits can be quite vindictive when angered, and attempting to fool one can anger a given spirit, or tickle its fancy, depending on the spirit.
One can also come to an arrangement with the local arcane nature spirits by ritually disenchanting magical items to appease them. Old un-attuned items are favorites, the older the better. Remember that as a rule most arcane nature spirits don’t care about residuum. It is a standard practice of the Mage’s Guild to offer all items being disenchanted for residuum to the local arcane nature spirits in hopes of placating them. Doing so usually distracts them from disenchanting un-attuned items quite nicely.
Residum is does not contain the magical energies arcane nature spirits can undue, nor does it trap arcane energy. Arcane nature spirits tend not to care about residum. Residum can be used to channel, and trap arcane energy.
[b] Second cornerstone part 2: things break [/b]
Items become warn, used, dilapidated, and break with use. Magical items are no exception. Magical items break from time to time. A broken magical item remains attuned, and may be repaired. Often they are disenchanted. An un-attuned broken magical item attracts arcane nature spirits to unmake a broken item sooner rather than later.
I see no reason to make rules for magical items breaking, but let it be known that they do break. Magical items are tougher then there non-magical counterparts, and the more powerful they are the tougher they are.
[b] [size=4] Third Cornerstone: people demand magical items [/size] [/b]
The base setting is a medieval feudalistic society named Folokrie. Folokrie is both an island, and a country that houses the bulk of humanity. Folokrie is a feudalistic society that bound together by an interconnected web of oaths of loyalty, and pledges of military support. Loyalty is bought with food, shelter, and protection form harm. There are dangerous and inhumanly evil things that go bump in the night that one needs protection from. Magical items offer tangible protection from danger. Adventurers, guilds, churches, gentry, nobles, and great land owners drive the demand for magical items.
In this setting one out of every 450 individuals is a landed knight (with an equal number of landed ladies). There are an equal number of landless knights, and ladies in waiting. The county is in a dangerous period in its history. There was an undead plague three generations ago, much of the undead menace continues to this day, and most of the lands in the center of the human kingdom island remain in the hands of the undead.
[b] Third Cornerstone part 1: Pawn shops [/b]
You can sell a magical item, even a broken one, with little or no effort for 20% of it crafting cost to many merchants in the realm.
[b] Third Cornerstone part 2: Auction houses [/b]
There are two great metropolises on opposing coats of the human island nation of Folokrie, and each one houses several competing auction houses that deal in magical items. Auctions are held weekly (levels 1-10), monthly (levels 11-20), and yearly (levels 21-30) depending on the supply of magical items, and there given level.
[b] Third Cornerstone part 3: Magical item agents [/b]
There are people who are well respected experts in locating buyers and sellers of magical items. They charge a fee for there expertise and reputation. Each of the major auction houses are frequented by these agents, and many of these agents are in the employ of the auction houses.
[b] Third Cornerstone part 4: Standing orders [/b]
Great landowners require supplies to keep there lands operating. Dragons fly in and burn and loot villages, Orc hoards raid in longboats by sea, undead spill from the center of the island, and monsters roam and breed in the center of the lands unchecked by civilized countermeasures. Brave knights and brave men die defending humanity, and magical items are lost in the process. Wealth is spent on walls, towers, guards, training, and magical items to equip the knights, and users of magic defending the land.
This is especially true of the seven march lord’s of the seven duchies of Folokrie who are tasked with defending civilization form the undead infested center of the land, and when possible reclaim territory, county, by county. Doing so requires vast amounts of supplies, and this includes magical items. A march lord’s quartermaster’s office is a good place to swap magical items, and sell magical items for hard currency. A march lord’s office is also a good place to obtain dangerous mercenary work (spoils of war are a big part of the appeal of such work).