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	<title>Comments on: Vancian Magic and Dungeons and Dragons 4E</title>
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	<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/</link>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-2139</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-2139</guid>
		<description>Leeky Windstaff: &quot;You did not actually prepare any sonic energy spells today, did you?&quot;
Vaarsuvius: &quot;Not as such, no.&quot;
Leeky Windstaff: &quot;Truly, more wizards have been laid low by the writings of Jack Vance than by any single villain.&quot;
Vaarsuvius: &quot;On an unrelated note, would you consider a brief pause in the battle? Say, about eight hours or so?&quot;
— The Order of the Stick #345
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leeky Windstaff: &#8220;You did not actually prepare any sonic energy spells today, did you?&#8221;<br />
Vaarsuvius: &#8220;Not as such, no.&#8221;<br />
Leeky Windstaff: &#8220;Truly, more wizards have been laid low by the writings of Jack Vance than by any single villain.&#8221;<br />
Vaarsuvius: &#8220;On an unrelated note, would you consider a brief pause in the battle? Say, about eight hours or so?&#8221;<br />
— The Order of the Stick #345<br />
<a href="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-2135</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-2135</guid>
		<description>Great example Chris.  In my mind, /roleplay solutions/ are found through /roleplay/ and not necessarily mechanics... although those can certainly serve an ancillary purpose such as a Bluff / Diplomacy check, or something similar.

The 4E rules and powers are largely designed around combat, because that is the major system that requires such rules.

But to be truly successful, I think the DM and Players both need to be willing to use their imaginations and be flexible with creative roleplay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great example Chris.  In my mind, /roleplay solutions/ are found through /roleplay/ and not necessarily mechanics&#8230; although those can certainly serve an ancillary purpose such as a Bluff / Diplomacy check, or something similar.</p>
<p>The 4E rules and powers are largely designed around combat, because that is the major system that requires such rules.</p>
<p>But to be truly successful, I think the DM and Players both need to be willing to use their imaginations and be flexible with creative roleplay.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-2038</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-2038</guid>
		<description>Wanted to drop another thought in on this thread, as it touches on some of the themes I mentioned earlier. For context&#039;s sake, I&#039;d brought up the point that once an encounter escalates into combat, 4E can feel like it locks a spellcaster into a fairly narrow set of options.

That said, I had something happen in my recent 4E game that simultaneously supports and debunks that statement. Since it serves to advance both sides of the debate, I thought it worth sharing here. In said game, I play a changeling wizard. In an earlier session, I&#039;d established a rapport with an influential male NPC by masquerading as a female dignitary and then seducing him (Don&#039;t look at me in that tone of voice, it&#039;s called a *role-playing game* for a reason).

In the latest session, this NPC was part of a team of baddies who meant to kill us. Left up to them, combat was inevitable. A successful check revealed to my character that this NPC appeared to be under the influence of a magical amulet, and I concluded that if said amulet (and therefore the influence) could be removed, then the combat might go much better for us, if it continued at all.

I used my minor action to shift into the female persona. My move action to approach him, and my standard action to slap him. The DM ruled that because of my earlier seduction efforts and other undisclosed factors, he spent his next turn essentially dazed. For my turn, I kissed the NPC and then removed the amulet while he was still distracted.

End result, the course of the encounter was radically altered, all because I was able to  think outside the box and use a more pacifist tactic.

To support my earlier statement, there was no way that the combat was going to be de-escalated through the use of 4E&#039;s magic system. All I had at my disposal were damage-dealing spells. In order to accomplish what I wanted, I had to step outside my class role and use a racial gimmick; one that any character of the same race could have done. Perhaps with some thought and proper inclination, there might be some nascent threads of a &quot;homogenization&quot; discussion there.

In support of the opposing viewpoint, there *are* ways to circumvent combat and think outside the box. One just needs to consider all the assets their character brings to the table, rather than tunnel-visioning on specific class features.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wanted to drop another thought in on this thread, as it touches on some of the themes I mentioned earlier. For context&#8217;s sake, I&#8217;d brought up the point that once an encounter escalates into combat, 4E can feel like it locks a spellcaster into a fairly narrow set of options.</p>
<p>That said, I had something happen in my recent 4E game that simultaneously supports and debunks that statement. Since it serves to advance both sides of the debate, I thought it worth sharing here. In said game, I play a changeling wizard. In an earlier session, I&#8217;d established a rapport with an influential male NPC by masquerading as a female dignitary and then seducing him (Don&#8217;t look at me in that tone of voice, it&#8217;s called a *role-playing game* for a reason).</p>
<p>In the latest session, this NPC was part of a team of baddies who meant to kill us. Left up to them, combat was inevitable. A successful check revealed to my character that this NPC appeared to be under the influence of a magical amulet, and I concluded that if said amulet (and therefore the influence) could be removed, then the combat might go much better for us, if it continued at all.</p>
<p>I used my minor action to shift into the female persona. My move action to approach him, and my standard action to slap him. The DM ruled that because of my earlier seduction efforts and other undisclosed factors, he spent his next turn essentially dazed. For my turn, I kissed the NPC and then removed the amulet while he was still distracted.</p>
<p>End result, the course of the encounter was radically altered, all because I was able to  think outside the box and use a more pacifist tactic.</p>
<p>To support my earlier statement, there was no way that the combat was going to be de-escalated through the use of 4E&#8217;s magic system. All I had at my disposal were damage-dealing spells. In order to accomplish what I wanted, I had to step outside my class role and use a racial gimmick; one that any character of the same race could have done. Perhaps with some thought and proper inclination, there might be some nascent threads of a &#8220;homogenization&#8221; discussion there.</p>
<p>In support of the opposing viewpoint, there *are* ways to circumvent combat and think outside the box. One just needs to consider all the assets their character brings to the table, rather than tunnel-visioning on specific class features.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-1667</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-1667</guid>
		<description>I agree that something should be done to make rituals more accessible, that&#039;s for sure. I think Wizards knows it too, and they&#039;ve said as much in a number of places. They&#039;re just not sure *what* form that should take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that something should be done to make rituals more accessible, that&#8217;s for sure. I think Wizards knows it too, and they&#8217;ve said as much in a number of places. They&#8217;re just not sure *what* form that should take.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-1665</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-1665</guid>
		<description>Final (hopefully) thought on this...

I like that 4E does away with the Vancian paradigm and eliminates the tactical versus strategic spell choices. I like that the at-will attack powers give a wizard extended relevance in an extended encounter, especially at lower levels. Perhaps a good compromise might be a feat or daily utility power that allows you to reduce the casting time of a ritual to appease niche players like me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Final (hopefully) thought on this&#8230;</p>
<p>I like that 4E does away with the Vancian paradigm and eliminates the tactical versus strategic spell choices. I like that the at-will attack powers give a wizard extended relevance in an extended encounter, especially at lower levels. Perhaps a good compromise might be a feat or daily utility power that allows you to reduce the casting time of a ritual to appease niche players like me.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-1664</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-1664</guid>
		<description>Well said.

There are those who prefer unlimited hand size, because they believe it lends itself to more creativity. I disagree, obviously.

I think that an OSR game is probably right for those folks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said.</p>
<p>There are those who prefer unlimited hand size, because they believe it lends itself to more creativity. I disagree, obviously.</p>
<p>I think that an OSR game is probably right for those folks.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-1662</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-1662</guid>
		<description>Good point about hand size. Hadn&#039;t considered that, which is ironic since it&#039;s a big reason that two of my players have an aversion to playing spellcasters. Seems like it&#039;s a move on some level to reduce the learning curve or intimidation factor associated with such classes.

Ultimately, like I said earlier, I guess it just comes down to the fact that players moving from 3.5 to 4E have to adapt to a new way of thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point about hand size. Hadn&#8217;t considered that, which is ironic since it&#8217;s a big reason that two of my players have an aversion to playing spellcasters. Seems like it&#8217;s a move on some level to reduce the learning curve or intimidation factor associated with such classes.</p>
<p>Ultimately, like I said earlier, I guess it just comes down to the fact that players moving from 3.5 to 4E have to adapt to a new way of thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-1660</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-1660</guid>
		<description>@Nicholas has hit the nail on the head. From the practical perspective, Comprehend Languages *isn&#039;t* used in combat - because no wizard worth their salt memorizes it if there&#039;s a chance that there will be combat. Same goes for Knock.

By making these spells ritual, the caster can use them prior to entering the bugbear lair (for example) in order to try to negotiate.

From a game design perspective, it makes sense to split spells between combat and non-combat. The wizard then isn&#039;t spending 10 minutes each turn picking a spell. It limits &quot;hand size,&quot; to borrow a term from another game genre. Limiting player choice *within combat* is actually a beautiful thing, and it helps the game play better. Combat becomes more balanced and it becomes easier for the DM to create appropriate challenges.

Incidentally, why wouldn&#039;t a wizard try to use Thunderwave (as an example) to bust open a door? As a DM, I&#039;d definitely give it a chance of working.

There are some spells that empower items and attacks in 4E, although they belong more squarely on the shoulders of the leader classes (as do other spells that &quot;buff&quot; the other characters).

This kind of limitation was in place to a lesser degree in earlier editions. After all, what DM hasn&#039;t ruled that &quot;knock&quot; only works on doors, and not on opponents poised on the edge of a cliff?

Good discussion, fellas!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nicholas has hit the nail on the head. From the practical perspective, Comprehend Languages *isn&#8217;t* used in combat &#8211; because no wizard worth their salt memorizes it if there&#8217;s a chance that there will be combat. Same goes for Knock.</p>
<p>By making these spells ritual, the caster can use them prior to entering the bugbear lair (for example) in order to try to negotiate.</p>
<p>From a game design perspective, it makes sense to split spells between combat and non-combat. The wizard then isn&#8217;t spending 10 minutes each turn picking a spell. It limits &#8220;hand size,&#8221; to borrow a term from another game genre. Limiting player choice *within combat* is actually a beautiful thing, and it helps the game play better. Combat becomes more balanced and it becomes easier for the DM to create appropriate challenges.</p>
<p>Incidentally, why wouldn&#8217;t a wizard try to use Thunderwave (as an example) to bust open a door? As a DM, I&#8217;d definitely give it a chance of working.</p>
<p>There are some spells that empower items and attacks in 4E, although they belong more squarely on the shoulders of the leader classes (as do other spells that &#8220;buff&#8221; the other characters).</p>
<p>This kind of limitation was in place to a lesser degree in earlier editions. After all, what DM hasn&#8217;t ruled that &#8220;knock&#8221; only works on doors, and not on opponents poised on the edge of a cliff?</p>
<p>Good discussion, fellas!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-1659</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-1659</guid>
		<description>Point taken, and utility spells fill that gap to some degree. But you also grazed the exact point I was trying to make: &quot;Casting time simply insures that rituals aren&#039;t used in most combats.&quot; Why? Why take the choice away from the player? 

Granted, rituals such as &quot;Consult Oracle&quot; are patently intended as devices with which to advance the plot, and if you try to use them in combat, you deserve to get your arse handed to you. But a ritual like Knock or Detect Secret Doors, for example, has the potential to save your bacon in the right situation. Comprehend Languages could be used at the outset of an encounter where there is a language barrier so you can gain some early intel and perhaps avoid a violent encounter. Enchant Magic Item could help turn the tide of an encounter by buffing the fighter&#039;s sword. I&#039;m sure given time, I could come up with more examples.

With the ritual casting times, all of these options are off the table. Point is not that what WotC did was wrong. It&#039;s their game to do with as they please, and in many respects, I have no disagreements with creative choices they made. I&#039;m only saying that I just don&#039;t really care for the idea that once combat breaks out, you seem to be welded to a finite number of options.

Again, in fairness, I do like the feature you mentioned earlier: by reclassifying, the wizard isn&#039;t forced to choose between spells. I just would have liked to see rituals have more relevance in the encounter setting, that&#039;s all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point taken, and utility spells fill that gap to some degree. But you also grazed the exact point I was trying to make: &#8220;Casting time simply insures that rituals aren&#8217;t used in most combats.&#8221; Why? Why take the choice away from the player? </p>
<p>Granted, rituals such as &#8220;Consult Oracle&#8221; are patently intended as devices with which to advance the plot, and if you try to use them in combat, you deserve to get your arse handed to you. But a ritual like Knock or Detect Secret Doors, for example, has the potential to save your bacon in the right situation. Comprehend Languages could be used at the outset of an encounter where there is a language barrier so you can gain some early intel and perhaps avoid a violent encounter. Enchant Magic Item could help turn the tide of an encounter by buffing the fighter&#8217;s sword. I&#8217;m sure given time, I could come up with more examples.</p>
<p>With the ritual casting times, all of these options are off the table. Point is not that what WotC did was wrong. It&#8217;s their game to do with as they please, and in many respects, I have no disagreements with creative choices they made. I&#8217;m only saying that I just don&#8217;t really care for the idea that once combat breaks out, you seem to be welded to a finite number of options.</p>
<p>Again, in fairness, I do like the feature you mentioned earlier: by reclassifying, the wizard isn&#8217;t forced to choose between spells. I just would have liked to see rituals have more relevance in the encounter setting, that&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas</title>
		<link>http://rpgdigest.com/2008/09/04/vancian-magic-and-dungeons-and-dragons-4e/comment-page-1/#comment-1658</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgdigest.com/?p=254#comment-1658</guid>
		<description>I believe these complaints, while valid, are actually pretty rare.  While it is possible for a scenario to come up where if you had instant access to Knock or Comprehend Languages... What are the odds of that vs the benefit of an Invisibility, Web or Magic Missile that you might have memorized instead.

It is up to your DM to help showcase rituals properly in encounter design.  For example, a Skill Challenge where the party holds off opponents while a ritual is cast.  Failure leads to combat rounds and probably disrupts said ritual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe these complaints, while valid, are actually pretty rare.  While it is possible for a scenario to come up where if you had instant access to Knock or Comprehend Languages&#8230; What are the odds of that vs the benefit of an Invisibility, Web or Magic Missile that you might have memorized instead.</p>
<p>It is up to your DM to help showcase rituals properly in encounter design.  For example, a Skill Challenge where the party holds off opponents while a ritual is cast.  Failure leads to combat rounds and probably disrupts said ritual.</p>
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